Curse

Jeydra · May 28, 2010, 11:47 AM // 11:47

You said more damage in a single spell. No mention of single-target. So there you go.

By the way you should realize you're backed deep into a corner. First you say that Elementalists weren't meant to be damage classes, then I show you what GuildWiki says about them dealing big damage and what the official Wiki says about Elementalists dealing the most damage in a single strike. Since you can't argue against what GuildWiki wrote, you pick on what the official Wiki wrote. Then since you can't argue against "single strike", you try "single spell". Too bad Necros still do more damage than Elementalists with a single spell. So next you're going to try "single-target-single-spell", which is so far from the original "single strike" I'm not going to bother answering.

You honestly remind me of the TAM people like Tyla who argued and argued and argued that Monks are better than ER Infusers are though they were so clearly proven wrong. Nobody's going to eat you if you admit you're wrong, zzz.

Perfected Shadow · May 28, 2010, 12:06 PM // 12:06

I think anet also takes into account the population of a class before deciding whether to buff that class in pve (popularity)... If that's true, then there could be no ele buffs coming for a while since I still see plenty of 8-random-nuke-skillbar eles.

Khomet Si Netjer · May 28, 2010, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

So much theory talk, when there's a far easier way to tell that Eles are way underpowered in damage.

Just grab a team consisting of mostly eles as damage dealers, and go vanquish various areas in HM. Then repeat with teams consisting of mostly the other classes. No cons and PvE skills, and no "farming" builds such as those that use obsidian earth or the speed clears builds.

The teams comprised of mostly eles is always the slowest by a huge margin. And that's ALREADY enough of a reason that ele needs a buff. I don't care if you can make the damage decent with cracked armor + Mindbender + AP + 40/40 and whatever ridiculous amount of support skills....If the damage is not outclassing supposed support classes (Mesmers, Rits, Necros, Monks) by a huge amount something is wrong.

I did this recently, vanquishing magus stones in ~1h20m, no cons (and i think only 1 or 2 deaths the whole time. my team was a Mo/E nuker (lol), a minion bomber, and two ele heroes (one of them a "triple heat" fire build, the other an E/N using air magic). henchmen were Lo Sha, Cynn, Mhenlo, Lina. And this was done after the mesmer update so the Wind Riders in there were all buffed. Is this the best time possible? Probably not... but it felt at least as fast as with any other team build i've tried. I don't do the usual discordway/sabway routine, I'd rather shape the team according to my character instead of changing my build to help necromancer teams roll over everything.

okay so now some theorycrafting... i'll try to keep it brief. my main is a paragon so i am used to bringing damage buffs to help them out. aside from the paragon shouts and anthems you have splinter weapon, great dwarf weapon, orders, EBSoH, etc. I used a similar approach to buff the elementalists, and although they don't have as many buffs available it worked out pretty well. Spells are all balanced with energy and recharge time; energy is not usually a problem for eles, and recharge time can be addressed with Assassin's Promise or Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom. I feel that EBSOW is better by far because it affects the entire team, and if you are using AP on top of it they even stack. With a standard wand and max ebon rank you are getting 68% chance of HSR on every spell on every character... it is a huge effect. The other big damage buff is EBSoH, it adds damage per packet so you want to take DoTAoE like Savannah Heat, Tenai's Heat, etc. It does not work on RoJ for some reason but all typical elementalist damage spells benefit from it. Searing Heat + EBSOH is doing 40 damage per second with 15 more from EBSOH... that is 200 total, and 75 more from EBSOH. ~33% more damage and that is a party-wide buff. All you have to do is bring ranged damage so that they stay in the wards instead of running around chasing the enemies.

Other notes... my monk was set up as smite/earth with RoJ, earthen shackles, ward against melee, EBSOH, EBSOW, Summon Ice Imp, GOLE. Note the use of double snares (shackles and the imp). You *must* have good snaring to make any use of DoTAoE in hardmode. The E/N was running Invoke Lightning and Chain Lightning with Weaken Armor, Enfeebling Blood, and Shadow of Fear. This makes their melee near useless and Weaken Armor increases the damage. The triple heat nuker had mark of rodgort, so with his fire damage plus RoJ plus poison from the necromancer minion bombing we have the enemies at max degen almost all the time. The pressure from this and the massive AoE is way too much for healers to take, they are unable to save their group when all of them are taking heavy damage. Lots of times I would see whole groups melt with the healer being the last one standing... the healer would save himself but couldn't cast fast enough to save anyone else.

so, in summary, bring these:
minion bomber (meatshields)
ebon wards (damage bonus + recharge bonus)
snaring or KD (or both)
anti-melee (weakness, shadow of fear, ward against melee)
degen (burning, poising, etc.)
weaken armor

the main idea is that to get decent results you need to buff the elementalists in the same ways that we buff melee damage. This isn't possible since there are more melee buffs available, but we can do as much as we can. The advantage to an all caster team is that all of these buffs will always affect your whole team since they are not scattered around as melee will be. They are also unaffected by blind, cripple, weakness, blocking and all the other melee hate that exists in the game. Melee teams have to spend a lot of effort keeping them clean or their damage drops to nothing... with casters we don't care.

as a final note... necromancers and mesmers will benefit from EBSOW, but not EBSoH (generally speaking).

Myotheraccount · May 28, 2010, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You said more damage in a single spell. No mention of single-target. So there you go.

By the way you should realize you're backed deep into a corner. First you say that Elementalists weren't meant to be damage classes, then I show you what GuildWiki says about them dealing big damage and what the official Wiki says about Elementalists dealing the most damage in a single strike. Since you can't argue against what GuildWiki wrote, you pick on what the official Wiki wrote. Then since you can't argue against "single strike", you try "single spell". Too bad Necros still do more damage than Elementalists with a single spell. So next you're going to try "single-target-single-spell", which is so far from the original "single strike" I'm not going to bother answering.

And you said strike. :S Regardless, MoP itself deals 0 damage so you need another strike to trigger it. Think about it.
If you take AoE effects into account when calculating total damage in one spell/hit then take Savannah Heat that does over 300 x whatever amount of foes you hit. Nothing else really compares. If you don't mind damage pulses taken as one bulk of damage that is.
I'm not arguing against either GuildWiki or GWW because I agree with what they wrote and think it's (partially) true. Eles can indeed do powerful bursts of damage and strong spikes practically on their own. You can also argue they can deal biggest damage in one spell or strike if you take AoE into account.
So I haven't digressed from my original thoughts in any way.
On single target damage melees will only beat them if you buff the shit out of them and go against undead with holy damage.

Quote:

You honestly remind me of the TAM people like Tyla who argued and argued and argued that Monks are better than ER Infusers are though they were so clearly proven wrong. Nobody's going to eat you if you admit you're wrong, zzz.

You can say that too. Because nobody proved Tyla wrong either. So maybe people should stop this autism with right or wrong. Tbh ER Prots are overkill most of the time and still arent flexible enough to fit in SCs so it depends. A clever person is one who sees both sides of the coin instead stubbornly sticking to one for argument's sake. But let’s not digress into that. :>

Daesu · May 28, 2010, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

If you take AoE effects into account when calculating total damage in one spell/hit then take Savannah Heat that does over 300 x whatever amount of foes you hit.

1 word scatter.

Frozen Ele · May 28, 2010, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Bad luck probably. Obviously you did ToPK, probably with a pug too. Do a SC like DoA and FoW, with non-terrible party and you will see what I mean. Chances of getting skill recharge proc are quite high if you kill about 10 foes at once. Maybe it works like drops and you can't get the same proc several times in a row between a certain time span.

What about general, non-SC, HM?

Jeydra · May 28, 2010, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

And you said strike. :S Regardless, MoP itself deals 0 damage so you need another strike to trigger it. Think about it.
If you take AoE effects into account when calculating total damage in one spell/hit then take Savannah Heat that does over 300 x whatever amount of foes you hit. Nothing else really compares. If you don't mind damage pulses taken as one bulk of damage that is.
I'm not arguing against either GuildWiki or GWW because I agree with what they wrote and think it's (partially) true. Eles can indeed do powerful bursts of damage and strong spikes practically on their own. You can also argue they can deal biggest damage in one spell or strike if you take AoE into account.
So I haven't digressed from my original thoughts in any way.
On single target damage melees will only beat them if you buff the shit out of them and go against undead with holy damage.

You can say that too. Because nobody proved Tyla wrong either. So maybe people should stop this autism with right or wrong. Tbh ER Prots are overkill most of the time and still arent flexible enough to fit in SCs so it depends. A clever person is one who sees both sides of the coin instead stubbornly sticking to one for argument's sake. But let’s not digress into that. :>

Lol somehow I don't think you saw how Tyla defended wanding as one reason why Monks > ER Eles - they wand and deal over 9000 damage while ER Eles have to keep casting spells, I'd rather deal damage than no damage, therefore Monks > ER Eles. Tell me if that's clever or idiotic.

Elementalists don't deal the most damage regardless of how you look at it. Single target, melee does way more. AoE, MoP does way more. You obviously can't count all 5 ticks of Savannah Heat vs. one burst of MoP damage. Good MoPs can explode mobs in 5 seconds. Where are the five ticks of Savannah Heat to that? So someone has to attack to trigger MoP. So what? How many times can you attack in the time it takes to cast Savannah Heat?

When was the last time you used an Ele hero for damage? When would you ever use an Ele hero for damage anyway?

Btw melee damage beats Ele damage even if it's not buffed. Also GWW is what said "strike", not me.

Arato · May 28, 2010, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Bad luck probably. Obviously you did ToPK, probably with a pug too. Do a SC like DoA and FoW, with non-terrible party and you will see what I mean. Chances of getting skill recharge proc are quite high if you kill about 10 foes at once. Maybe it works like drops and you can't get the same proc several times in a row between a certain time span.

42 or you take AoE damage into account all of a sudden?

Yeah it was with a PuG, but I'm in a small guild and don't really feel like getting into another large, impersonal guild again only to be kicked if I take off for a few weeks of vacation (or few months, or even years as it was last time lol)

The guild I was in before now, before I came back from hiatus and found myself guildless for inactivity, had hundreds of people in it, more recruited every day. Nobody knew anybody very well cept a few outspoken people. So I came back to the game with a few friends from another game and started a new guild, one just for us that won't be disbanded or kick for inactivity. But unfortunately most the time it's just 3 of us that are active to any degree. It has it's plusses but the major negative side is a need to PuG most times.

But either way, I do have pretty uncanny bad luck, so I don't like relying on chance :}

I do use AoS on my rit for dwg, I don't really pay too much attention to how often I get recharge because my skills are basically spammable anyway on that setup, and it makes for nice E-management on top of the random recharges.

NerfHerder · May 28, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

Dervish does need help, however Paragons have been built from the ground up as a party support class that aids with shouts and chants and that's exactly what they do, perhaps motivation is underwhelming, but imbagons are ungodly party support.

If elementalists had been built from the ground up to be Ether Renewal bonders and support, and not damage, than I wouldn't be arguing right now about them needing to be updated.

So a Dervish needs help because it only has one good PvE build that can still be beat by an Assassin. A Paragon does not need help becaue it only has one Imba build in PvE. But the Elementalist does need the help because it only has TWO viable builds in PvE and one of those is a support build. I dont get it

Where do you draw the line in who needs some buffing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

I think anet also takes into account the population of a class before deciding whether to buff that class in pve (popularity)... If that's true, then there could be no ele buffs coming for a while since I still see plenty of 8-random-nuke-skillbar eles.

Thats just the thing, they are all Fire magic bars that 90% of the time will be SF nuker. My complaint is that Elementalists have been slowly outclassed by other professions with DPS ability. Secondly, SF Nuker is about the only damage build you can seriously take into PvE and expect some results. It wouldnt fix everything but buffing the other Elemental attunements could make Eles less of a one trick pony and give a reason to switch thier +Fire Magic headpiece in HM. Unless all professions were only meant to have one trick up thier sleeves, they need a buff.

UnChosen · May 28, 2010, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

So a Dervish needs help because it only has one good PvE build that can still be beat by an Assassin. A Paragon does not need help becaue it only has one Imba build in PvE. But the Elementalist does need the help because it only has TWO viable builds in PvE and one of those is a support build. I dont get it

Where do you draw the line in who needs some buffing?

I get it. The problem with ele's two "viable" build is that they are NOT based on what they were supposed to be...damage dealer. When 90% of their skills are straight damage, its pretty clear what they were designed to be in the first place. For paragon, the huge number of party support skills at least indicate that their one viable build actually fits their role. (although I agree with you, one viable build is still stale and the class needs a buff also).

If there is an "imbaele" where the ele has one viable damage build that does huge damage....I wouldn't bother with this thread right now.

P.S. By two viable builds you mean ER healer and ER protter right?

Arato · May 28, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

So a Dervish needs help because it only has one good PvE build that can still be beat by an Assassin. A Paragon does not need help becaue it only has one Imba build in PvE. But the Elementalist does need the help because it only has TWO viable builds in PvE and one of those is a support build. I dont get it

Where do you draw the line in who needs some buffing?

By what I see people taking in runs and pugs, by what I see meta builds using. The fact that the only times I ever see Dervs in pve content are for running droks and using rit skills instead of using derv skills, that means there just isn't a viable role for them. Paragons yeah I guess I can see that having only *1* viable build really, despite how powerful that build is, despite the fact that that build is right up their ally, they could use some help with more variety.

With Eles the only real help they need is in hard mode, aside from that it's more tweaks than anything. Eles are still running much the same potential in a group as they have 3 years ago when hard mode came out, more or less Ele skills have largely stagnented and been left behind while everyone else power creeped. When I came back from an almost 3 year hiatus, I found ele to be almost exactly the same way I'd left it with some minor changes, thunderclap giving daze instead of a kd on every hit with lightning damage, obsidian flesh losing its self snare for high energy costs, I think that's about it, lightning orb getting cracked armor in pve, chain lightning basically becoming the same as invoke lightning with slightly less damage, that's all the changes I can think of to the entire class.

Meanwhile every other class around had much more sweeping changes. Ritualist being the big one. Last time I'd played a rit every spirit took 3 seconds to cast, and SoS was an energy management tool, an elite signet of creation. UA changed from a res that was a maintained enchantment that if the enchantment was shattered the person died to an overwhelmingly powerful skill, buffing healing and being a full hp/energy res at your location. Permaforming, something that was relatively isolated when I'd left, used for soloing and running rather than main tanking for groups, was harder to do, as it was a 45 sec cooldown and there were no consumables to speed up recharge I think except holiday drops. I think it had to be echoed. You could do full damage however. Now they'd put a damage cap on it, but made it easier to permaform, and permaform assassins are the predominant tanking class in the game. Usually for full runs. Eles biggest change was going from damage dealer to bonder/infuser.

It just all seemed backwards. Tanks became melee dps (change to hundred blades), melee dps became main tanks, nukers became healers, healers became nukers.

Quote:

Thats just the thing, they are all Fire magic bars that 90% of the time will be SF nuker. My complaint is that Elementalists have been slowly outclassed by other professions with DPS ability. Secondly, SF Nuker is about the only damage build you can seriously take into PvE and expect some results. It wouldnt fix everything but buffing the other Elemental attunements could make Eles less of a one trick pony and give a reason to switch thier +Fire Magic headpiece in HM. Unless all professions were only meant to have one trick up thier sleeves, they need a buff.

Dual heats (or triple if you can use your elite slot for savannah) does much more damage than searing flames spam, it just requires a competent tank, and can have long recharges. Even that said, the damage is really bad when facing foes with 100+ AL.

NerfHerder · May 28, 2010, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

If there is an "imbaele" where the ele has one viable damage build that does huge damage....I wouldn't bother with this thread right now.

P.S. By two viable builds you mean ER healer and ER protter right?

Actually I meant SF and ER. But, SF usually takes 3 or 4 to be really effective, so its no where near an imba build, its just the cuurent meta.

@Arato
The increase in AI foe foes in HM and NM has caused them to scatter too often. Unless you you have a chance to get a mob balled up the "heat skills" often goes wasted, untill recharge. Still works ok in PvP. But yes otherwise it does out DPS SF.

I also think things are kinda backwards, Assassins armor rating in PvE is on par with a Warrior and do more DPS, Eles are better at protting than Monks and Necro Heros out heal Monk Heros, Monks cant really farm anymore, Ritualists are THE damage dealers, and all the good skills get nerfed because of PvP even after they invented the skill split.

Arato · May 29, 2010, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Actually I meant SF and ER. But, SF usually takes 3 or 4 to be really effective, so its no where near an imba build, its just the cuurent meta.

@Arato
The increase in AI foe foes in HM and NM has caused them to scatter too often. Unless you you have a chance to get a mob balled up the "heat skills" often goes wasted, untill recharge. Still works ok in PvP. But yes otherwise it does out DPS SF.

I also think things are kinda backwards, Assassins armor rating in PvE is on par with a Warrior and do more DPS, Eles are better at protting than Monks and Necro Heros out heal Monk Heros, Monks cant really farm anymore, Ritualists are THE damage dealers, and all the good skills get nerfed because of PvP even after they invented the skill split.

Scatter isn't such an issue with a competent tank, and meteor shower. That's why I harp on meteor shower so much, because it's so crucial to me being able to get my damage out. I don't like searing flames. I don't like that half the casts just apply a degen when if I have mesmers and necromancers or other condition spreaders, (not to mention other SF elementalists), I don't like how intensive it is on energy for the mediocre damage it does particularly in hard mode, a SF build requires not only an attunement spell, but usually GoLE and glowing gaze, if not further energy management on top of that. Not to mention it not functioning at all against several types of monsters, destroyers being the foremost, because I do like to do dungeons.

With a heats build your E-management is attunement, and either AP or AoS (the +5 energy bonus DOES proc often enough to make it an effective energy management tool provided lots of stuff is dying all the time), which the energy management nature of those skills is more of a side effect bonus.

Though the weakness of a heats build (aside from piss poor damage in HM or against certain mob types) is a strong boss that won't die in 1 run through your bar, with little to no adds that can be used to trigger instant recharges. Then you stare at a recharging bar unable to do anything.

NerfHerder · May 29, 2010, 03:55 AM // 03:55

SF isnt energy intensive at all. With Glowing Gaze you will never have energy problems.
PvE SF Nuker

Thats what I typically use, so I know the power of the heats. But thats niether here or there. What im complaining about is that there is a lack of regard when the other three elements are concerned. Why be constricted to the Fire Element if your going to be called an Elementalist. Fire attribute is fine. The rest need help.

Edit: destroyers are like in what? 2-5 dungeons/eotn missions tops. They are not a reason to balance an entire elite or play style around.

Arato · May 29, 2010, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

SF isnt energy intensive at all. With Glowing Gaze you will never have energy problems.
PvE SF Nuker

Thats what I typically use, so I know the power of the heats. But thats niether here or there. What im complaining about is that there is a lack of regard when the other three elements are concerned. Why be constricted to the Fire Element if your going to be called an Elementalist. Fire attribute is fine. The rest need help.

Edit: destroyers are like in what? 2-5 dungeons/eotn missions tops. They are not a reason to balance an entire elite or play style around.

You won't have energy problems, because you're devoting 3 or so skill slots to energy management. That build has 4 energy management skills. You can't tell me it's not energy intensive if you need 4 energy management skills.

If you walked in with a searing flames build with only your attunement as e-management, you'd be having energy problems.

Jeydra · May 29, 2010, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Thats what I typically use, so I know the power of the heats. But thats niether here or there. What im complaining about is that there is a lack of regard when the other three elements are concerned. Why be constricted to the Fire Element if your going to be called an Elementalist. Fire attribute is fine. The rest need help.

Fire is the third weakest element in general PvE, behind Earth and Air. The best elite for Elementalists to use in general is Ether Renewal, followed by Assassin's Promise. Searing Flames is effective enough, but pretty far behind AP.

If you have enemies balled up for the twin Heats to work, why not just use Searing Flames? Or Glyph Sac'ed Meteor Shower, for that matter.

bhavv · May 29, 2010, 03:41 PM // 15:41

If your struggling in HM with an Elly, try using these hero builds:

You really shouldnt have anymore problems with that, it just wont work on Destroyers, just change to over to something else for those. In places with lots of condition removal, or Realm of Torment, change over to a Mind Blast build.

Searing Flames damage is boosted by Weaken Armor, one of the Ebon wards and fragility, the Paragon gives you damage reduction from ToF (9 spear, 10 motivation, 10 command, 12 leadership), and the Necro has mass condition / degen spam - bleeding, poison, weakness and cracked armor plus Ulcerous Lungs and lots of AoE armor ignoring damage (further boosted with fragility).

In NF you also get a third SF hench with Cynn. Just add two monk henchies, and whichever other two you like.

Arato · May 29, 2010, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

If your struggling in HM with an Elly, try using these hero builds:

You really shouldnt have anymore problems with that, it just wont work on Destroyers, just change to over to something else for those. In places with lots of condition removal, or Realm of Torment, change over to a Mind Blast build.

Searing Flames damage is boosted by Weaken Armor, one of the Ebon wards and fragility, the Paragon gives you damage reduction from ToF (9 spear, 10 motivation, 10 command, 12 leadership), and the Necro has mass condition / degen spam - bleeding, poison, weakness and cracked armor plus Ulcerous Lungs and lots of AoE armor ignoring damage (further boosted with fragility).

In NF you also get a third SF hench with Cynn. Just add two monk henchies, and whichever other two you like.

standard of honor works better with pulsing damage. Because the damage from the ward is armor ignoring it almost makes up for the lost damage from higher armor.

Myotheraccount · May 29, 2010, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

1 word scatter.

Tank is there for a reason.

Quote:

Elementalists don't deal the most damage regardless of how you look at it. Single target, melee does way more. AoE, MoP does way more. You obviously can't count all 5 ticks of Savannah Heat vs. one burst of MoP damage. Good MoPs can explode mobs in 5 seconds. Where are the five ticks of Savannah Heat to that? So someone has to attack to trigger MoP. So what? How many times can you attack in the time it takes to cast Savannah Heat?

Yes, SH can explode mobs in 5s but does it without any assistance. That is extremely valuable when you have limited space in your team e.g. T4. Without assistance from other sources other than it's own bar, MoP Necro can do about 184 AoE damage in the same time SH does all of it's ticks.
You can attack once at best before SH finishes casting. MoP takes 1s to cast leaving you with 1s to attack if you time everything perfectly.
MoP needs someone else to trigger it to deal damage that's already more than one strike. On it's own MoP deals no damage. Even if you don't take that into account the maximum damage MoP can do in a single strike without cons or anything is 46 or 92 if you don't count 100b as a strike.

Quote:

Btw melee damage beats Ele damage even if it's not buffed. Also GWW is what said "strike", not me.

Not really. It depends.

Jeydra · May 29, 2010, 05:36 PM // 17:36

You said "one spell". Make up your mind. If you're going to say "one strike" I'll show you a screenshot of Sun and Moon Slash doing 1k damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myotheraccount

Not really. It depends.

Really? Want to bet?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=93